The circumcision debate
For the past few, well, months, Kevin and I have been 'discussing' (I'll not say arguing) about whether or not we should circumcise Mr. Pants. The American Academy of Pediatrics says it's cosmetic surgery, and rate of infection is determined by cleanliness, and if the kid is taught to clean it right, they won't have infections. It used to be believed that circumcision was a necessarily evil to prevent infection.
We even talked to a pediatrician, who said it was really a personal choice, because it was purely cosmetic.
I even read an article in a Playboy magazine about the effects of circumcision on men's sex lives.
I read another article about how circumcision can prevent the spread of HIV in Africa.
I even talked to the guy from Scotland that I work with, who is not circumcised, and is from a country where pretty much no one aside from the Jewish community are circumcised.
So, I tentatively decided I didn't want to do it.
And Kevin decided he wanted to.
We talked about why--my reason was, it's not neccessarily, and it hurts.
His reason was, he wants the baby to 'look like him'.
I asked if he planned to set aside an hour a week or so for him and the baby to check out each other's things, because if they don't do that, well then, it's not worth it to have the surgery just so they look like each other.
He argued that I was sick, and he would never do that, and that he knows I wouldn't hang out comparing my vagina to our daughter's if we had one, and that why should he do something sick like that?
I told him that I also didn't plan to cut our daughter's vagina up when she was an infant.
We've been at a standstill. I've basically been begging him for a reason that convinces me to do it--that I want us to be in agreement on whatever we decide, but that I need something better than "I'm macho, and want my son to look like me inside his pants". Whatever.
We went saturday morning to a mother/ infant assessment class required by the birth center. It was pretty boring, but Kevin and I are pretty birth-classed out. They talked about baby poop, caring for stitches after the birth, taking temperatures, watching for jaundice, etc. Then they showed some slides of what the babies look like when they come out, pictures of the placenta and umbilical cord, and all that stuff so that you knew what to expect. At the end, they had slides of a little boy being circumcised.
Before she showed them, she told us all that if we wanted to leave beforehand, we could. Kevin and I, since he wanted to do a circumcision, and since I was probably going to go along with it against my will, decided to stay and see what it looked like.
We saw slides of a little baby's legs strapped down to a plastic board, and then a sheet with a little hole for the tiny baby penis attached, and then a little tool that pulled the foreskin overtop of it, and they someone cutting it. Then some stitches afterward, and the sheet was all soaked with blood. Then we got to ask some questions.
I, personally, wanted to cry. I thought it was horrifying. Another girl that had opted to stay, actually did cry. The nurse teaching the class suggested that the parents should be there with the baby when he has it done, because they are usually pretty upset because it's painful, and for pan relief they usually give them a bottle of sugar water. They can give them shots to numb it, but the shots in the tip of the penis are just about as painful as the procedure, so, it doesn't matter either way.
One person asked if the baby cries.
The nurse said she had only seen the procedure once.
The person asked if the baby she saw cried.
The nurse said yes, it did.
The person asked if it cried a lot.
The nurse said it screamed the whole time.
So, I started collecting my things and picking up my stuff. I had to leave before I became the embarrassing girl who was crying in a room full of people.
Kevin followed me out, and we got into the car, and I started to cry a little and mentioned how I was so happy that at least I was able to hold off the tears until we left.
Kevin was pretty quiet for a few minutes, and then he said "Honestly, after seeing that, I don't want to do it anymore."
I was like "OK, you know I don't want to do it, but, how was that shocking? What did you think it looked like?"
He was like "I don't know--but I didn't think it looked like that. I don't want to do that to our kid, just so that he can look like me--it's not worth that."
Then he reached over and patted my stomach and said "It's ok Pants, you can come out now--don't be scared, we aren't going to do THAT to you!"
*sigh of relief*
I'm so glad. And we are both on board. Thank you.
Did you know that nationally, 60% of baby boys are currently NOT circumcised? Our midwife told us that.
posted by ElliottPreciousPants @ 1:13 PM
5 Comments:
*sigh*
i suppose you know i have a comment, cuz i pretty much always do. skip ahead when you're bored, since you've likely heard most of the debate.
Myself, i'm so torn on this issue, which, luckily, i pretty much don't have to decide on for a nice long time. there's a good summary (i'll paste it at the end) of what most people DO decide, but why they should decide and what they should decide... there's so many opinions. in fact, i think there are so many opinions that it's hard for anyone to make a belief based on entirely unbiased motives. let me tell you ahead of time my motives have plenty of bias.
my intellectual opinion (and that's all it is- opinion) is that circumcision is an unnecessary medical procedure, and that we shouldn't do unnecessary stuff to our bodies. i'm horrified by female genital mutilation, and i guess i can't make an academic distinction between the two practices, except that one seems routine and medical, while the other seems barbaric and oppressive- but that's not very objective. i've seen circs done, and i don't feel that upset about the pain and discomfort caused. bleeding is really minimal, the duration of the procedure is pretty short, and all those medical associations who "don't recommend" it agree that it's ok to do for religious, ritual, or health reasons... but again, there aren't good, well-documented reasons to do it. i likely also have a pretty high tolerance for seeing pain and blood, given that from time to time i see necessary pain and blood. so medically, academically... it's pretty unjustifiable.
HOWEVER... jewish people have done it for millenia. jesus was circumsized (ha). have you seen a not circumsized penis? ugh... gives me the shivers. i remember in college, when i had not had the pleasure, some of the girls in our hall drawing me a picture, because the thought really didn't make sense to me. since then, i've seen them. i've been close enough to give the judgement completely subjectively and emotional response-wise, which is ugh. even with all the above objective stuff. blah.
the second thing i think about (after- won't girls not want to see that?), is that i have this impression that uncircumsized guys are less comfortable with their bodies. i've heard that they are more uncomfortable in the locker room, they notice that they don't look like a lot of other guys... if it were my kid, i would worry about that more than is merited (everyone feels weird about something or another- who cares what your genitals look like!). And to further enforce how silly that worry is, here is my favorite part of the meta article i was reading (summarizes "state of circumcision in the US"):
"In a study of adolescents, only 69% of circumcised and 65% of uncircumcised young men correctly identified their circumcision status as verified by physical exam"
kids don't even KNOW if they're circumsized or not! (i won't mention that someone i might be dating right now has previously asked me if he is circumsized or not, because possibly, at the hypothetical age of 27, he might not know)
I guess the only experience i have in my own life to compare is that my parents had my ears pierced before i was two (sort of funny, since they didn't have my brother circumsized). i don't remember it happening, and once i was a little older, was super glad i had earrings, and didn't have to go for the piercing. ultimately, i think people mostly do whatever the dad has (like Kevin said), which is what happened in my family- the older of the bros isn't, the younger is- apparently because that's what their dads have (i never looked...). seems random to me. there's my long- winded answer. and here's the summary, included because i think 60% is reasonably accurate, but sort of sentamental too.
"
In a national probability sample of adults in 1992, the National Health and Social Life Survey found that 77% of men reported being circumcised, including 81% of white men, 65% of black men, and 54% of Hispanic men. It is important to note that reported circumcision status may be subject to misclassification. In a study of adolescents, only 69% of circumcised and 65% of uncircumcised young men correctly identified their circumcision status as verified by physical exam.
According to the National Hospital Discharge Survey, 65% of newborns were circumcised in 1999, and the overall proportion of newborns circumcised was stable from 1979 to 1999. Notably, the proportion of black newborns circumcised increased during this period (58% to 64%); while the proportion of white infants circumcised remained stable (66%). In addition, the proportion of newborns who were circumcised in the Midwest increased during the 20-year period from 74% in 1979 to 81% in 1999; the proportion of infants born in the West who were circumcised decreased from 64% in 1979 to 37% in 1999. In another survey, the National Inpatient Sample, circumcision rates increased from 48% during 1988–1991 to 61% during 1997–2000. Circumcision was more common among newborns born to families of higher socioeconomic status, newborns in the Northeast or Midwest, and newborns who were black.
In 1999, the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) changed from routinely recommending circumcision to a neutral stance on circumcision, noting, “It is legitimate for the parents to take into account cultural, religious, and ethnic traditions, in addition to medical factors, when making this choice." This position was reaffirmed by the academy in 2005. This change in policy may influence reimbursement for, and practice of, neonatal circumcision. According to a 1995 review, 61% of circumcisions were paid by private insurance, 36% were paid for by Medicaid, and 3% were paid by the parents of the infant. As of mid-2004, 48 of the 50 states’ Medicaid programs reimbursed providers for circumcision, although multiple states are considering eliminating Medicaid reimbursement for circumcision in light of the AAP statement and growing Medicaid budget constraints.
I'm glad you commented. I was hoping to see what other people thought.
I agree with you though that it's a really tough decision to make. It's not neccessary, as we covered, and I too think why would we do something to our bodies that hurts and is not neccessary?
Like your pierced ears--if we circumcise him--will he wake up one day and be happy that we did, and that we did it when he was young enough to not remember the pain? I don't know.
I never thought making this choice was going to be a big deal. But now I'm all crazy and emotional, and he's my baby.
It still looks like we aren't doing it, now that we saw the little slide show.
Interesting that boys have poorer self esteem when not circumcised, especially when most of them don't know if they are or aren't.
Tough choice. Glad I don't have to think about it.
He's not going to remember it. I mean, if 60 some percent of guys don't even know if they've had one, I highly doubt that there are any guys out there who can remember the operation.
I would be curious to find out the results of a more recent survey. 1999 seems kind of long ago. I always assumed almost all guys get circumcised, but maybe it's a new trend not to?
Most men used to get circumcised, because it was advised by the american academy of pediatrics. They said it prevented infections. But they have recently changed their statement, saying it's not really neccessary, and up to the parent. So I think there is a trend starting in the direction of less circumcision.
I mean, not all of them are, or were, of course. But many were, because of the belief that it prevented infection.
i guess the thought now is that it probably does prevent infection, but the risk of getting an infection + the risk of some horrible consequence of infection (let's face it- if it goes away, no one really cares) is less than or equal to the chance of something not going ideally during circumcision. they say there is a trend toward less circumcision in this country- sort of interesting on a lot of levels that don't have to do with your baby (increasing- to -stable rates in the east and midwest, western states are seeing a decrease. they think because hispanic people are more represented there now, and historically they turn down circumcisions.... lower-income children are less likely to get the procedure than upper class or middle class kids- who knows why, but interesting. infection stuff on a public health level is interesting, but only in places where HIV is a big concern and where it's primary mode of transmission is straight male/female intercourse.... again, neat, but doesn't help your decision, probably).
i think it's probably far less of a big deal than people make of it- i can't imagine that guys get into the heat of the moment, and have a girl say- ew, i'm not touching that (would they say that if it was or if it wasn't...). i think kids don't remember it or stay traumatized by it, and that there are probably far more pressing issues affecting whether they feel comfortable with their bodies or not. there are also far more important risk factors to infection & cancer, which are the supposed health reasons to do it (ex- if you smoke, you're way more likely to get penile cancer than other guys- circumsized or not). my personal asthetics aside, i think it's ok to do what you and kevin are ultimately comfortable with either way- hopefully you will agree and neither of you will feel that it's against your will.
then just hope pants doesn't decide after all the debate, that he wants to get circumsized in 5th grade, like some guy i dated in high school did. it's apparently a bigger deal then. you guys are already good parents, and whatever you settle on will be right.
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